Are piggyback tunes 100% undetectable?

[MiBlugt]

Inquiring minds want to know. Discuss.

 

[Kale808]

For the most part it is, but one can never be absolutely certain.

 

[stinger1168]

There's only one way to find out I'm afraid... Install the tune and then go to the dealership...good luck

 

[MurlinatoR]

I imagine that the black box probably sees the voltage differences but the dealer would have to have a good reason to dig that deeply into the ECU and to look at tiny little changes in driving history.

 

[DesertStinger]

There's only one way to find out I'm afraid... Install the tune and then go to the dealership...good luck

They're not going to check your car for tunes for simple trips to the dealer. Probably would have to be some sort of engine failure before they really inspect it.

 

[robz32]

They are if you unplug the device from the vehicle before taking it for service or selling it. However if you decide to leave it installed and take in for service they need to run an ECU diagnostic to troubleshoot a CEL then they will be able to see it.

 

[mldavis2]

Not sure how long the "black box" records data (somewhere I heard 30 minutes), but if boost pressures are seen above normal they will be recorded by the MAP sensor.

 

[VegasStinger]

Kia has been using black box for a few years, if you have warranty concerms, it would be a good idea to remove the piggy back and drive it a few hundred miles before you bring it in.

 

[WS6_Keith]

Not sure how long the "black box" records data (somewhere I heard 30 minutes), but if boost pressures are seen above normal they will be recorded by the MAP sensor.

The way that the piggybacks, like a LAP3 Uncle Chip, work, is by giving lower MAP data to the ECU, which causes the ECU to increase boost until this skewed down value comes up to the target. As such, any recordings in the ECU would show normal MAP values.

 

[MurlinatoR]

The way that the piggybacks, like a LAP3 Uncle Chip, work, is by giving lower MAP data to the ECU, which causes the ECU to increase boost until this skewed down value comes up to the target. As such, any recordings in the ECU would show normal MAP values.

[MENTION=242]WS6_Keith[/MENTION], in theory you are right. Where the flag comes in is that the recorder monitors about 3 dozen different figures. They will see a voltage variance when correlated to engine RPM. With the chip installed, the car will "report" lower voltage readings at HIGHER engine revs.

 

[WS6_Keith]

[MENTION=242]WS6_Keith[/MENTION], in theory you are right. Where the flag comes in is that the recorder monitors about 3 dozen different figures. They will see a voltage variance when correlated to engine RPM. With the chip installed, the car will "report" lower voltage readings at HIGHER engine revs.

No, it won't. Let's pick one spot for a second. Say you are WOT at 4000rpm. The car has a target of 7psi of boost. If the piggyback were not installed, the MAP/TIP sensors would report actual boost (let's put a voltage on it and say that's 3.0V) and the ECU would adjust the wastegate solenoid bleed to hold 7psi. Now you install a piggyback. At the same spot, the car still wants 7psi of boost, but the piggyback reduces the MAP/TIP sensor output by 0.2V, so the car thinks the boost is only 6psi. It increases the wastegate duty cycle to achieve the 3.0V. Actual boost is up, but the ECU doesn't know this.

This is the same thing the car does automatically as air density goes down (when you go up in elevation).

 

[MurlinatoR]

No, it won't. Let's pick one spot for a second. Say you are WOT at 4000rpm. The car has a target of 7psi of boost. If the piggyback were not installed, the MAP/TIP sensors would report actual boost (let's put a voltage on it and say that's 3.0V) and the ECU would adjust the wastegate solenoid bleed to hold 7psi. Now you install a piggyback. At the same spot, the car still wants 7psi of boost, but the piggyback reduces the MAP/TIP sensor output by 0.2V, so the car thinks the boost is only 6psi. It increases the wastegate duty cycle to achieve the 3.0V. Actual boost is up, but the ECU doesn't know this.

This is the same thing the car does automatically as air density goes down (when you go up in elevation).

Except that you just stated that the waste gate, which is the direct control over boost pressure, will now be actuating at a later RPM than normal. Still a variance from standard.

 

[mldavis2]

[MENTION=242]WS6_Keith[/MENTION], in theory you are right. Where the flag comes in is that the recorder monitors about 3 dozen different figures. They will see a voltage variance when correlated to engine RPM. With the chip installed, the car will "report" lower voltage readings at HIGHER engine revs.

I agree with [MENTION=291]MurlinatoR[/MENTION]. I've been out of the car repair business for many years, but even back in the '80's when I was, the computers recorded a good deal of information from sensors that we could pull up on a computer for analysis. Today, with memory dirt cheap compared to back then, and multi-GB storage chips available in tiny USB devices and cameras, it would surprise me if all manufacturers weren't looking at dozens of sensors and data as an overall balance. There are a lot of sensors in that system, and some of them are going to be out of limits with a tune. MAP and MAF, O2, TPS, spark advance, VVT, injector pulse, high pressure fuel pump, wastegate and blow-off valves, engine RPM and vehicle speed, torque load, intercooler temperatures, transmission temperatures, and several others. Pay your money and take your chances.

 

[MurlinatoR]

The most important part of all of this is simple; no standard service visit is going to warrant cracking the skull of your ECU to dig this deep. If you threw a rod or bent a valve and tried to push it on warranty, then the chances of a dig start to step up.

In real life, no one will be the wiser regarding a piggyback.

 

[WS6_Keith]

Except that you just stated that the waste gate, which is the direct control over boost pressure, will now be actuating at a later RPM than normal. Still a variance from standard.

In my example, I picked one RPM in time, so how did I say it was at a later RPM?

The only thing that could be seen in a snapshot would be the wastegate dutycycle. But who is to say what the wastegate dutycycle is supposed to be to generate a specific level of boost? This is depending on current density altitude, temperature and other factors.

 

[WS6_Keith]

I agree with [MENTION=291]MurlinatoR[/MENTION]. I've been out of the car repair business for many years, but even back in the '80's when I was, the computers recorded a good deal of information from sensors that we could pull up on a computer for analysis. Today, with memory dirt cheap compared to back then, and multi-GB storage chips available in tiny USB devices and cameras, it would surprise me if all manufacturers weren't looking at dozens of sensors and data as an overall balance. There are a lot of sensors in that system, and some of them are going to be out of limits with a tune. MAP and MAF, O2, TPS, spark advance, VVT, injector pulse, high pressure fuel pump, wastegate and blow-off valves, engine RPM and vehicle speed, torque load, intercooler temperatures, transmission temperatures, and several others. Pay your money and take your chances.

The piggybacks LIE to the ECU about what the sensors are reporting, so therefore as far as the ECU knows, everything is working properly. That's the point of limiting how much manipulation can be done...to keep the car from going outside of accepted norms and throwing codes.

 

[MiBlugt]

In my example, I picked one RPM in time, so how did I say it was at a later RPM?

The only thing that could be seen in a snapshot would be the wastegate dutycycle. But who is to say what the wastegate dutycycle is supposed to be to generate a specific level of boost? This is depending on current density altitude, temperature and other factors.

Would a combination of high fuel trims and higher wastegate dutycycle, potentially throw a flag?

 

[WS6_Keith]

Would a combination of high fuel trims and higher wastegate dutycycle, potentially throw a flag?

The stock ECU will be correcting long and short term fuel trims to keep a/f ratio at the target point, and with additional boost/airflow, these trims will go up. Keeping those trims within the limits to not set a code is part of what the manufacturers testing must verify.

I had a LAP3 Uncle Chip on my '13 Sonata with the 2.0T Theta II engine for over 30k miles with no codes or issues.